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BTW, "barging" is not mentioned (to my knowledge) in the RRS, therefore is not forbidden, it would be difficult to prove in any event.  I think it used to be, but was dropped because of that.

Hank

On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 12:20 PM, Racing Discussions <racing_discussions@hhsa.org> wrote:
I don't seem to see the attachment, is this better?

Luffing at the start.jpg

Michel Jichlinski



-----Original Message-----
From: Racing Discussions <racing_discussions@hhsa.org>
To: jichgag <jichgag@aol.com>
Sent: Sun, Jun 11, 2017 12:09 pm
Subject: re: Rules Questions <<$174460444226$>>

I am enjoying this conversation!

Attached is a little discussion from Dave Perry "Understanding the Racing Rules of Sailing". It's 2012 but I don't think that part changed. To stop a "barger" the leward boat has to do that pretty much windward of the committee boat and hail the barger. But if the barger was able to pass just the bow, it is then too late for L to start luffing and claiming rights.

In short if you think someone is barging, shut the door right away, if you don't do that, then you have accepted that W is not barging and cannot then squeeze him and protest if he is unable to get out of the way due to the presence of the committee boat.

In the first diagram, if L comes up hard she can drive W off before she gets to the committee boat because W has room to keep clear.  As soon as L gets an overlap she should start pushing W up.  As long as W has room to dodge the committee boat (her bow is astern of the committee boat's transom), that is sufficient.  L could also argue that W can ease sheets and fall astern.  This is similar to being OCS at the start and sandwiched between two boats with no room to maneuver.  The only way to maneuver (since the OCS boat has no rights) is to ease sheets, slow down and let the fleet go by.  No matter what, avoiding contact is paramount.

Cheers,
Hank

On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 12:20 PM, Racing Discussions <racing_discussions@hhsa.org> wrote:
I don't seem to see the attachment, is this better?

Luffing at the start.jpg

Michel Jichlinski



-----Original Message-----
From: Racing Discussions <racing_discussions@hhsa.org>
To: jichgag <jichgag@aol.com>
Sent: Sun, Jun 11, 2017 12:09 pm
Subject: re: Rules Questions <<$174460444226$>>

I am enjoying this conversation!

Attached is a little discussion from Dave Perry "Understanding the Racing Rules of Sailing". It's 2012 but I don't think that part changed. To stop a "barger" the leward boat has to do that pretty much windward of the committee boat and hail the barger. But if the barger was able to pass just the bow, it is then too late for L to start luffing and claiming rights.

In short if you think someone is barging, shut the door right away, if you don't do that, then you have accepted that W is not barging and cannot then squeeze him and protest if he is unable to get out of the way due to the presence of the committee boat.

Opps

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 11, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Racing Discussions <racing_discussions@hhsa.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Your welcome. It was great fun.
>
> Kent
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jun 11, 2017, at 12:21 PM, Racing Discussions <racing_discussions@hhsa.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't seem to see the attachment, is this better?
>>
>> Michel Jichlinski
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Racing Discussions <racing_discussions@hhsa.org>
>> To: jichgag <jichgag@aol.com>
>> Sent: Sun, Jun 11, 2017 12:09 pm
>> Subject: re: Rules Questions <<$174460444226$>>
>>
>> I am enjoying this conversation!
>>
>> Attached is a little discussion from Dave Perry "Understanding the Racing Rules of Sailing". It's 2012 but I don't think that part changed. To stop a "barger" the leward boat has to do that pretty much windward of the committee boat and hail the barger. But if the barger was able to pass just the bow, it is then too late for L to start luffing and claiming rights.
>>
>> In short if you think someone is barging, shut the door right away, if you don't do that, then you have accepted that W is not barging and cannot then squeeze him and protest if he is unable to get out of the way due to the presence of the committee boat.
>>
>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<<
>> You have received this message as a member of: Herrington Harbour Sailing Association
>> Change preferences (including opt-out): https://HHSA.clubexpress.com/content.aspx?page_id=13&club_id=8237
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>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<<
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Your welcome. It was great fun.

Kent

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 11, 2017, at 12:21 PM, Racing Discussions <racing_discussions@hhsa.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I don't seem to see the attachment, is this better?
>
> Michel Jichlinski
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Racing Discussions <racing_discussions@hhsa.org>
> To: jichgag <jichgag@aol.com>
> Sent: Sun, Jun 11, 2017 12:09 pm
> Subject: re: Rules Questions <<$174460444226$>>
>
> I am enjoying this conversation!
>
> Attached is a little discussion from Dave Perry "Understanding the Racing Rules of Sailing". It's 2012 but I don't think that part changed. To stop a "barger" the leward boat has to do that pretty much windward of the committee boat and hail the barger. But if the barger was able to pass just the bow, it is then too late for L to start luffing and claiming rights.
>
> In short if you think someone is barging, shut the door right away, if you don't do that, then you have accepted that W is not barging and cannot then squeeze him and protest if he is unable to get out of the way due to the presence of the committee boat.
>
>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<<
> You have received this message as a member of: Herrington Harbour Sailing Association
> Change preferences (including opt-out): https://HHSA.clubexpress.com/content.aspx?page_id=13&club_id=8237
>
>
I don't seem to see the attachment, is this better?

Luffing at the start.jpg

Michel Jichlinski



-----Original Message-----
From: Racing Discussions <racing_discussions@hhsa.org>
To: jichgag <jichgag@aol.com>
Sent: Sun, Jun 11, 2017 12:09 pm
Subject: re: Rules Questions <<$174460444226$>>

I am enjoying this conversation!

Attached is a little discussion from Dave Perry "Understanding the Racing Rules of Sailing". It's 2012 but I don't think that part changed. To stop a "barger" the leward boat has to do that pretty much windward of the committee boat and hail the barger. But if the barger was able to pass just the bow, it is then too late for L to start luffing and claiming rights.

In short if you think someone is barging, shut the door right away, if you don't do that, then you have accepted that W is not barging and cannot then squeeze him and protest if he is unable to get out of the way due to the presence of the committee boat.
I am enjoying this conversation!

Attached is a little discussion from Dave Perry "Understanding the Racing Rules of Sailing". It's 2012 but I don't think that part changed. To stop a "barger" the leward boat has to do that pretty much windward of the committee boat and hail the barger. But if the barger was able to pass just the bow, it is then too late for L to start luffing and claiming rights.

In short if you think someone is barging, shut the door right away, if you don't do that, then you have accepted that W is not barging and cannot then squeeze him and protest if he is unable to get out of the way due to the presence of the committee boat.
Doug,

To reiterate, there is no zone around the committee boat during the start sequence because Rule 18 does not apply.  After the start there is because Rule 18 is turned on.  So when finishing, with two boats finishing together (overlapped) the inner boat must be given room. 

In like manner, the overtaking rule (Rule 17) does not apply as above because there is no proper course before a boat starts so the leeward boat can push the windward boat up when they become overlapped.  Before there is an overlap the boat astern must stay clear from the boat ahead (Rule 12) when the boats are on the same tack.

Hope this is helpful.

Cheers,
Hank

On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 7:47 PM, Racing Discussions <racing_discussions@hhsa.org> wrote:
Zone - The area around a mark within a distance of three hull lengths of the boat nearer to it. A boat is in the zone when any part of her hull is in the zone.

So, if boat A enters the zone nearest the RC boat ahead of other vessels, should be given room within 3 boat lengths of the RV vessel.

Boat B approaches boat A and has overlap and is within 2 boat lengths of boat A, shall not sail above her proper course.

That's what I am understanding from the rules.

Thanks Keith, I got it. I reviewed some racing materials and Hank did a good job.

Cheers!

Doug,

 

Let's chat at the bar next week.  It will be easier to understand how the rules apply with some salt and pepper shakers.

 

Thanks,

Keith 


From: "Racing Discussions" <racing_discussions@hhsa.org>
To: keithmayes@rcn.com
Sent: Friday, June 9, 2017 7:47:49 PM
Subject: re: Rules Questions <<$174393337838$>>




Zone - The area around a mark within a distance of three hull lengths of the boat nearer to it. A boat is in the zone when any part of her hull is in the zone.

So, if boat A enters the zone nearest the RC boat ahead of other vessels, should be given room within 3 boat lengths of the RV vessel.  

Boat B approaches boat A and has overlap and is within 2 boat lengths of boat A, shall not sail above her proper course.

That's what I am understanding from the rules.


Hank,

 

Very good summary of the rules and how they apply - thanks.

 

And Michel is also correct.  As Hank indicated, if you are going to barge at the start you have to be careful!

 

His final point is a good one, and hence the attention that some of us pay to having a square line.  The committee boat is not always pointed into the wind due to current.  The windex at the top of the mast will point at the wind.

 

Keith


From: "Racing Discussions" <racing_discussions@hhsa.org>
To: keithmayes@rcn.com
Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2017 11:08:00 AM
Subject: re: Rules Questions <<$174415558976$>>




It's the "Don't make contact" rule that limits the "sandwich" situation of leeward boat, windward boat, committee boat.  The leeward boat pushes the windward boat "into" the committee boat, but the windward boat must avoid contact with the committee boat so she hails the windward boat that she can't go higher.  The leeward boat then protests the windward boat, and she has to do 2 penalty turns as soon as possible.  Lesson is:  Don't barge!"

The committee boat is a mark is in the Definitions, pg 8.

The preamble to Section C (that includes Rules 18 and 19) states that Sec C does not apply during the start.

Rule 17 does not apply before the start because there is no proper course until after the start.

The governing rules in this discussion are Rules 10-16.  Rule 15 says a boat acquiring the right of way over another boat must initially give her room to keep clear...whatever initially means.

Another note is that all of this becomes somewhat controlled when the start line is square to the wind.  Leeward boats can push up windward boats when they luff them up but a leeward boat is intrinsically limited by how high she's willing to go.  If the line is skewed, she can go higher on one of the tacks depending on the direction of the skew.

Cheers,
Hank

On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 11:48 PM, Racing Discussions <racing_discussions@hhsa.org> wrote:

However my understanding on 3 is that if a boat is already leeward of the committee boat, another boat cannot luff below it if that would force the first boat to collide with the committee boat, you always must give other boats room to keep clear.

 

 

Michel Jichlinski

 

From: Racing Discussions
Sent: Friday, June 9, 2017 6:07 PM
To: jichgag@aol.com
Subject: Rules Questions <<$174388782995$>>

 

Posted by: Keith Mayes on 6/9/2017 at 4:03 PM
View/reply online       Reply to forum at racing_discussions@hhsa.org

Over the past couple of weeks I have been asked some questions about situations on the water, and have overheard other discussions about rules and right of way etc.

To summarize:
1)  According to the definition of "mark" a committee boat is a mark.
1.1)  When boats are finishing, the committee boat is a mark and Rule 18 applies.  That is to say, that when boats are overlapped when they enter the zone (3 boat length circle) the outside boat has to allow the inside boat room to finish
1.2)  When boats are starting, the committee boat is also a mark, and it is not an obstruction. Rule 18 does not apply when boats are starting.  Rules that do apply are windward leeward, port starboard etc.
2) There is no proper course before the start.  A boat to leeward of another has "luffing rights" and can ask the windward boat to come up. The two boat length overlap rule does not apply - because there is no proper course.  Failure of the windward boat to respond breaks a rule.
3) Since the committee boat is not an obstruction, boats that barge in to the start to windward of other boats are not entitled to room. If there is no space for a windward boat to safely pass by the committee boat without fouling a leeward boat, the windward boat should take actions to avoid either hitting the committee boat or fouling another boat.

For reference refer to the RRS Definitions of "mark", "mark room", and Section C including the preamble.  Section C is Rules 18, 19, and 20. 

That's my take.  I could be wrong.

Keith

You have received this message as a member of: Herrington Harbour Sailing Association
Change preferences (including opt-out): Online Profile

 
 
 


It's the "Don't make contact" rule that limits the "sandwich" situation of leeward boat, windward boat, committee boat.  The leeward boat pushes the windward boat "into" the committee boat, but the windward boat must avoid contact with the committee boat so she hails the windward boat that she can't go higher.  The leeward boat then protests the windward boat, and she has to do 2 penalty turns as soon as possible.  Lesson is:  Don't barge!"

The committee boat is a mark is in the Definitions, pg 8.

The preamble to Section C (that includes Rules 18 and 19) states that Sec C does not apply during the start.

Rule 17 does not apply before the start because there is no proper course until after the start.

The governing rules in this discussion are Rules 10-16.  Rule 15 says a boat acquiring the right of way over another boat must initially give her room to keep clear...whatever initially means.

Another note is that all of this becomes somewhat controlled when the start line is square to the wind.  Leeward boats can push up windward boats when they luff them up but a leeward boat is intrinsically limited by how high she's willing to go.  If the line is skewed, she can go higher on one of the tacks depending on the direction of the skew.

Cheers,
Hank

On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 11:48 PM, Racing Discussions <racing_discussions@hhsa.org> wrote:

However my understanding on 3 is that if a boat is already leeward of the committee boat, another boat cannot luff below it if that would force the first boat to collide with the committee boat, you always must give other boats room to keep clear.

 

 

Michel Jichlinski

 

From: Racing Discussions
Sent: Friday, June 9, 2017 6:07 PM
To: jichgag@aol.com
Subject: Rules Questions <<$174388782995$>>

 

Posted by: Keith Mayes on 6/9/2017 at 4:03 PM
View/reply online       Reply to forum at racing_discussions@hhsa.org

Over the past couple of weeks I have been asked some questions about situations on the water, and have overheard other discussions about rules and right of way etc.

To summarize:
1)  According to the definition of "mark" a committee boat is a mark.
1.1)  When boats are finishing, the committee boat is a mark and Rule 18 applies.  That is to say, that when boats are overlapped when they enter the zone (3 boat length circle) the outside boat has to allow the inside boat room to finish
1.2)  When boats are starting, the committee boat is also a mark, and it is not an obstruction. Rule 18 does not apply when boats are starting.  Rules that do apply are windward leeward, port starboard etc.
2) There is no proper course before the start.  A boat to leeward of another has "luffing rights" and can ask the windward boat to come up. The two boat length overlap rule does not apply - because there is no proper course.  Failure of the windward boat to respond breaks a rule.
3) Since the committee boat is not an obstruction, boats that barge in to the start to windward of other boats are not entitled to room. If there is no space for a windward boat to safely pass by the committee boat without fouling a leeward boat, the windward boat should take actions to avoid either hitting the committee boat or fouling another boat.

For reference refer to the RRS Definitions of "mark", "mark room", and Section C including the preamble.  Section C is Rules 18, 19, and 20. 

That's my take.  I could be wrong.

Keith

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Doug,

Just so we are clear, the committee boat is not an obstruction .

The only real obstructions in Herring Bay are the shallow water off Holland Point and the fish traps by 83A and HHSA C. One might encounter a cruising boat on the course and that could become an obstruction, but down in HHSA we don't see Rule 19 come into play very often.

Thanks,
Keith 
Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S® 5, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Racing Discussions <racing_discussions@hhsa.org>
Date: 06/09/2017 19:36 (GMT-05:00)
To: keithmayes@rcn.com
Subject: re: Rules Questions <$174392783219$>>




19 ROOM TO PASS AN OBSTRUCTION
19.1 When Rule 19 Applies
Rule 19 applies between two boats at an obstruction except
(a) "when the obstruction is a mark the boats are required to leave on the same side," or
(b) "when rule 18 applies between the boats and the obstruction is another boat overlapped with each of them."
However, at a continuing obstruction, rule 19 always applies and rule 18 does not.
19.2 Giving Room at an Obstruction
(a) A right-of-way boat may choose to pass an obstruction on either side.
(b) "When boats are overlapped, the outside boat shall give the inside boat room between her and the obstruction," unless she has been unable to do so from the time the overlap began.
Part 2 WHEN BOATS MEET
18
(c) While boats are passing a continuing obstruction, if a boat that was clear astern and required to keep clear becomes overlapped between the other boat and the obstruction and, at the moment the overlap begins, there is not room for her to pass between them, she is not entitled to room under rule 19.2(b). While the boats remain overlapped, she shall keep clear and rules 10 and 11 do not apply.


However my understanding on 3 is that if a boat is already leeward of the committee boat, another boat cannot luff below it if that would force the first boat to collide with the committee boat, you always must give other boats room to keep clear.

 

 

Michel Jichlinski

 

From: Racing Discussions
Sent: Friday, June 9, 2017 6:07 PM
To: jichgag@aol.com
Subject: Rules Questions <<$174388782995$>>

 

Posted by: Keith Mayes on 6/9/2017 at 4:03 PM
View/reply online       Reply to forum at racing_discussions@hhsa.org

Over the past couple of weeks I have been asked some questions about situations on the water, and have overheard other discussions about rules and right of way etc.

To summarize:
1)  According to the definition of "mark" a committee boat is a mark.
1.1)  When boats are finishing, the committee boat is a mark and Rule 18 applies.  That is to say, that when boats are overlapped when they enter the zone (3 boat length circle) the outside boat has to allow the inside boat room to finish
1.2)  When boats are starting, the committee boat is also a mark, and it is not an obstruction. Rule 18 does not apply when boats are starting.  Rules that do apply are windward leeward, port starboard etc.
2) There is no proper course before the start.  A boat to leeward of another has "luffing rights" and can ask the windward boat to come up. The two boat length overlap rule does not apply - because there is no proper course.  Failure of the windward boat to respond breaks a rule.
3) Since the committee boat is not an obstruction, boats that barge in to the start to windward of other boats are not entitled to room. If there is no space for a windward boat to safely pass by the committee boat without fouling a leeward boat, the windward boat should take actions to avoid either hitting the committee boat or fouling another boat.

For reference refer to the RRS Definitions of "mark", "mark room", and Section C including the preamble.  Section C is Rules 18, 19, and 20. 

That's my take.  I could be wrong.

Keith

You have received this message as a member of: Herrington Harbour Sailing Association
Change preferences (including opt-out): Online Profile

 

Doug,

See Keith's previous write-up and references.  Mark room does not apply at the start.  The committee boat is not an obstruction during the start, it is a mark.  A leeward boat CAN push a windward boat into the committee boat (or for that matter over the start line early).  The rule was made to keep boats from barging in during the start many years ago.

Cheers,
Hank

On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 7:47 PM, Racing Discussions <racing_discussions@hhsa.org> wrote:
Zone - The area around a mark within a distance of three hull lengths of the boat nearer to it. A boat is in the zone when any part of her hull is in the zone.

So, if boat A enters the zone nearest the RC boat ahead of other vessels, should be given room within 3 boat lengths of the RV vessel.

Boat B approaches boat A and has overlap and is within 2 boat lengths of boat A, shall not sail above her proper course.

That's what I am understanding from the rules.

Zone - The area around a mark within a distance of three hull lengths of the boat nearer to it. A boat is in the zone when any part of her hull is in the zone.

So, if boat A enters the zone nearest the RC boat ahead of other vessels, should be given room within 3 boat lengths of the RV vessel.

Boat B approaches boat A and has overlap and is within 2 boat lengths of boat A, shall not sail above her proper course.

That's what I am understanding from the rules.
17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.
19 ROOM TO PASS AN OBSTRUCTION
19.1 When Rule 19 Applies
Rule 19 applies between two boats at an obstruction except
(a) "when the obstruction is a mark the boats are required to leave on the same side," or
(b) "when rule 18 applies between the boats and the obstruction is another boat overlapped with each of them."
However, at a continuing obstruction, rule 19 always applies and rule 18 does not.
19.2 Giving Room at an Obstruction
(a) A right-of-way boat may choose to pass an obstruction on either side.
(b) "When boats are overlapped, the outside boat shall give the inside boat room between her and the obstruction," unless she has been unable to do so from the time the overlap began.
Part 2 WHEN BOATS MEET
18
(c) While boats are passing a continuing obstruction, if a boat that was clear astern and required to keep clear becomes overlapped between the other boat and the obstruction and, at the moment the overlap begins, there is not room for her to pass between them, she is not entitled to room under rule 19.2(b). While the boats remain overlapped, she shall keep clear and rules 10 and 11 do not apply.
Over the past couple of weeks I have been asked some questions about situations on the water, and have overheard other discussions about rules and right of way etc.

To summarize:
1)  According to the definition of "mark" a committee boat is a mark.
1.1)  When boats are finishing, the committee boat is a mark and Rule 18 applies.  That is to say, that when boats are overlapped when they enter the zone (3 boat length circle) the outside boat has to allow the inside boat room to finish
1.2)  When boats are starting, the committee boat is also a mark, and it is not an obstruction. Rule 18 does not apply when boats are starting.  Rules that do apply are windward leeward, port starboard etc.
2) There is no proper course before the start.  A boat to leeward of another has "luffing rights" and can ask the windward boat to come up. The two boat length overlap rule does not apply - because there is no proper course.  Failure of the windward boat to respond breaks a rule.
3) Since the committee boat is not an obstruction, boats that barge in to the start to windward of other boats are not entitled to room. If there is no space for a windward boat to safely pass by the committee boat without fouling a leeward boat, the windward boat should take actions to avoid either hitting the committee boat or fouling another boat.

For reference refer to the RRS Definitions of "mark", "mark room", and Section C including the preamble.  Section C is Rules 18, 19, and 20. 

That's my take.  I could be wrong.

Keith
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