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Eunice - Liberty Pre
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1/24/2021 10:10 AM
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Not working
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Michel
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1/24/2021 10:09 AM
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Link
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/4879170917?pwd=U1dvdlRVcUFHMmZVaU1sS2U2R25ZZz09
Passcode if needed 12345678
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Michel
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1/24/2021 10:08 AM
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Everyone, please try to get into the meeting again.
Thanks
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Sara
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1/23/2021 7:44 PM
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This is all exactly why we need as many people as possible tomorrow.
The agenda or survey are not conclusions. Only data points.
On Saturday, January 23, 2021 Racing Discussions <racing_discussions@hhsa.org> wrote:
Thanks for raising this Ted. As this wasn’t part of the survey a few of us couldn’t add this. I for one would love to do cruiser spin! My thought was perhaps we could consider this as a class for some of the races, not all. This could allow us to test the
participation
I also had an idea about doing a spin seminar where we teach cruisers how to fly those syms and asyms they have sitting there but are too afraid to fly!
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Jayne Durden
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1/23/2021 5:59 PM
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Thanks for raising this Ted. As this wasn’t part of the survey a few of us couldn’t add this. I for one would love to do cruiser spin! My thought was perhaps we could consider this as a class for some of the races, not all. This could allow us to test the
participation
I also had an idea about doing a spin seminar where we teach cruisers how to fly those syms and asyms they have sitting there but are too afraid to fly!
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tslotwinski
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1/23/2021 5:25 PM
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The CHESSS Poplar Island shorthanded race will be on Saturday May 22.
Regarding proposed classes, I thought there had been a suggestion to consider a cruising spinnaker class. Do we know how many of the 7 boats who chose spinnaker in the survey might consider a cruising spinnaker class?
Ted
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Eunice - Liberty Pre
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1/23/2021 3:49 PM
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At least it wasn't 6 6 6.
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Eunice - Liberty Pre
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1/23/2021 3:47 PM
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I took notes with a view towards tomorrow's meeting.
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Michel
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1/23/2021 2:36 PM
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Racers
Tomorrow is the meeting where all will be discussed. So far, 14 have registered, but it is not too late. The more of you are at the meeting, the better the results will be. Go to the events page to register and get Zoom instructions. It starts at 10 am, which is 5 pm in The Levant so totally appropriate to bring a cold one and some food. Attached is the Agenda, the proposed schedule for the year (CBYRA has now defined many races, so much of the yellow highlighting is gone), the CBYRA schedule as it stands (Eunice and David may have more news), the results of the Survey (I swear I didn't make it up) and a cheat sheet to discuss Kent suggestion regarding Course G. Please read the thread in this Winter Discussion for what concerns Racing Rules and Scoring.
I hope to see many of you tomorrow.
Michel
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MarkDB
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1/6/2021 11:43 AM
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I would like to include discussion of Cruising Spinnaker Class at the meeting. Also, i think a seminar on the different rating systems would be productive in getting more people educated and facilitating a more robust discussion. Mark
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Lil
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1/5/2021 10:39 AM
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This proposal sounds OK to me. I think a CC meeting for planning purposes in late January is a good idea. I will be out of pocket from Jan 28 to Mar 4. We could hash out some of the scoring changes in late Jan and then think about them until later, but it might be a bit early to commit then. This includes initial discussion of class structures.
Cheers, Hank
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Jason Fox
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1/3/2021 12:58 PM
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Michel,
1/24 works for me! A few proposed agenda changes:
- Given this strange year we just had, I propose we table a final class discussion until after we not only have the survey results, but also who renews as racers by 1 March and what (if any) changes COVID may cause. We can have a separate CC meeting in late March/early April to finalize the classes.
- I propose we drop the ORR discussion from this meeting. Since there was never an intent to have a separate class but only to compare results in a "virtual class" that doesn't count for anything, I will just reach out to anyone desiring to participate in the experiment and we will work it out amongst ourselves (but would appreciate a question in the survey asking if they are willing to voluntarily participate).
- I agree with Kent on 17.C.4 and I have a few other scoring questions that are worth at least re-visiting since some of the assumptions about the racing fleet when they were written may not be true anymore. I propose we have have a rules/scoring subcommittee that includes at least Hank, Keith, Ted and anyone else interested to go through the questions/issues in a separate meeting and report back to the full CC to avoid bogging down the January meeting.
Thanks! Jason
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Michel
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1/3/2021 10:22 AM
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All
As this thread holds all the important discussion points, I am using to send two documents. The first is a draft Schedule for next year and the second is an Agenda for a Competition Committee / Racing meeting which I propose to hold by Zoom on January 24. Please let me know what changes / additions you would like on the Agenda, the discussion on the Schedule can take place at the meeting. Note that based on the Winter Discussions I am already proposing to run three classes next year (Spin, Non Spin and SH). I am still planning on running a poll which I will do shortly.
Michel
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Lil
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12/9/2020 4:23 PM
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If we are going to change the TCFs to meet the conditions, how are we going to decide which to use in a given race? The wind conditions don't change that much during our Wed races (although they can) so it's pretty easy to choose the proper TCF. When the conditions are in the boundary zones between light and moderate or moderate and heavy, which way do we go? Who makes the call? The RC? Often the RC does not see what the conditions are out toward the eastern part of Herring Bay. All of these questions leave me with the conclusion that we ought to keep it simple and use the middle-ground TCF we've been using for years.
As for implementing ORC ratings in HHSA, I am totally against it. I agree with Ted's comments. I, for one, have no intention to get another raing since I don't race in CBYRA classes that require one. Why start here in HHSA? As scorer, I've been working these spreadsheets for a while. I've implemented the various Spin/Non-Spin and CR/WL ratings into the formulas. Adding or changing classes is more difficult, but it certainly can be done if one makes sure it's done without unintentional results. But, it's still a pain! If we do a side-by-side comparison, what will that tell us? Which one is right? Or better? They both work!
In the end, we'd need to set up separate ORC classes and we just don't have enough racers in HHSA to do that.
Thanks. Just my two cents.
Hank
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Jason Fox
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12/9/2020 3:26 PM
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Ted, no doubt/argument PHRF is way simpler from both a racer's and scorer's perspective. But before we all get off on a tangent, I think what is on the table here is a few members voluntarily trying either ORR Ez or ORC Club (not decided) in parallel with PHRF to see what we think first hand and would not at all be official results without any commitment either way... "try and see if we like it". For 2021, PHRF would still be official. I would be absolutely in favor of trying to use the "condition-appropriate" TCFs next year to provide a true-apples to apples comparison, especially since around here races tend to fall into the "slow" category for most of our racing season, but we use the "average" correction. I have some additional comments/questions on this that I'll send directly to you to avoid dragging everyone down with us two engineers geeking out on math.
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tslotwinski
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12/9/2020 2:37 PM
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No longer being a boat owner/skipper I try to stay out of these discussions. I have attached a few comments I hope will help HHSA racers sort through the pros/cons of PHRF versus CRCA/ORR. Just my thoughts.
Ted
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Jason Fox
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12/9/2020 11:47 AM
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Rich, good observations/points. I can answer some of that now without a trial. AYC has a really good explanation for why they are advocating ORC (attached), but what it boils down to is "trading simplicity for fairness"; what they say here could also be true for ORR (there is a separate ORR vs ORC discussion). No doubt it would be more complicated, but the question is "would it be more fair?" How would we measure that in a way that is meaningful to us at HHSA?
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Rich24
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12/8/2020 9:59 PM
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Jason, What I meant by the positive results might include the performance changes between the two handicap systems, ease in assigning a rating to the newbies that want to come out and try racing, and cost differences if anything of significance. Seems this should all come out with your trial proposal and when the two systems are compared for an up or down decision. I am sure this is all in the plan to experiment with it and them both together. Also what Hank might have to go through to implement.
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Jason Fox
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12/7/2020 5:40 PM
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Rich--
Great points and thank you! I'll admit the earlier starter time was harder for my crew, but not impossible; if that enables more/better racing for more people, then I'm all for it!
As far as ORR goes, I would agree that it hasn't gained traction in HHSA, but if you look at the CBYRA high point pages you see a different story... CRCA uses ORR ratings, which is growing in popularity around the bay since it tends to suit non-traditional racing boats a bit better than PHRF, which also reflects some of the changes in the racing environment outside Annapolis. Also, most of the major ocean races are moving away from PHRF to ORR. I don't think the majority of us want to make the switch for the club next year, but there are a few of us that want to try a voluntary "virtual class" to get the demonstration of "positive results" you mention, but I'd also ask what you mean by "positive results?" I'm still wondering myself what that might look like.
Jason
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Rich24
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12/6/2020 4:44 PM
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Hi Michel and the Racing Committee,
Sorry for my delay in getting back to you regarding some thoughts on the season.
Many thanks to you all for the innovative 2020 Covid Racing season. Certainly got some newbies out and participating. Appreciate the earlier start and the SH class. With more working at home the earlier start seemed to be a boon to families and the SH class to those without a larger stable of crew members to schedule and maintain the covid rules or suggested protection measures. Hope we are able to continue both.
Yes on the spinnaker option if it does not split up the fleet into small noncompetitive groups. No fun going around the buoys by self or only a couple of competitors.
Not sure on the ORR class. Yes, it has been suggested for more than a few years. However it does not seem to be receiving a lot of traction. Again, there are some disadvantages in the PHRF, but it has been working the 35 years I have been out there. Need to have demonstrated a significant positive result in comparison.
The awards ceremony could be held in conjunction with the Spring Meeting/BBQ/Nominations which had a good turnout for the Fall Meeting on the Gdunk patio and lawn.
Thanks to all for the variety of suggestions. All worth discussing.
Rich, SV Spook
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