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Racing Results

Revised 2021 Frostbite Series Summary and Commodor...
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On average, Kaya does not arrive one boat after boats that didn't compete. Something that happened two years in a row is not a fluke. This system rewards no shows over competitors and RCs who stick to it.

It's now in Mark's good hands.


It's an apples to oranges comparison.  The redress reflects the RCs average performance.  The DNC score is associated with one race.  Flukes happen.  One of a kind in many seasons of frostbites. Doesn't mean the approach is wrong.

Cheers,
Hank

It took me too long to open this, but now that I did, it see again the problem with the system and explain why I voted against it. Look at Races 7 and 8 on November 21. The RC redress for Kaya is 9.8, whereas no-shows get a 9. It's a crazy result and totally unfair to the RC.

As discussed in the past, if you insist on this system, then you must adapt the RC redress to make it dependent on the number of boats that day, vs the number of boats when the RC happened to be sailing. It's mathematically possible but a pain in the behind and easy to mess up.

I continue to believe that dealing with the scoring with the Wednesday series system is the right way to go.

Michel


Sorry it's taken so long to get this done.  Here's what the Frostbite summary results would look like in the original DNC scoring system.  There a good number of boats that moved around moderately.  The top two did not change.  Number three did. The main thing as I see it is that the boat totals went significantly lower (obviously), and this tends to make the competition tighter (which is a good thing).  The main impact is with the boats that only had one or two missed racing days.  Remember that all but the last event had two races per day.  So an event DNC counted double.  This is a crippling penalty with the current scoring.

I recommend this discussion be moved to another forum that is not the Racing Results forum. I recommend discussing either under Racing Discussion and/or Competition Committee. I think this forum should about announcing the results only.


Doug

Hank,

Just for comparison's sake, can you show us what the series results would look like if we scored it the "other way"?

Also, I think we as a group tend to over-ascribe the impact any given series scoring system has on an individual's decision to race... (i.e. confusing correlation and causation).  People will naturally prefer any system in which it is easier for them to do "better" (for example, I'd REALLY prefer we used CRCA because I do 'better' in that rating system, but I'm still out there racing under PHRF, no matter how flawed I think it is).  But in reality I'm mostly out there to be on the water and have fun with my friends... which I think is probably closer to the truth for most of us out there.

Cheers!
Jason

I was very much against making the change to the RRS method of calculating DNCs, and my prophesy at the time has been fulfilled.  Six out of fourteen boats only raced half or less of the races, three of those six only raced once.  For the eight boats that raced more than half the events, any DNCs wiped them out of contention if they had more than one, and if they only had one they couldn't afford to have a bad day.  These races are informal, non-high point events.  Modifying the RRS should not be a big problem, after all those guys up in Annapolis have done it, and we all know how particular they are.  Further, these races are a way to get non-racers to put their toes in the water to see what it's like.  The DNC scoring drove this year's competition this year.  All you have to do is look at the series summary from an arm's length and see at the predominant color.  I strongly recommend we go back to the original method of scoring DNCs.

Merry Christmas, One and All!
Hank

ps.  I always thought the principal argument for the change was to be consistent with the RRS.  I don't recall Michel's example of a poorly attended race.  That doesn't seem to apply in this club right now.

Following this post Keith agreed that there was in fact an open discussion on this subject at the beginning of the year. Every important decision that was made always involved all the racers, never was it made in a smoke filled backroom by the CC only. We're not that many racers so it was easy to do.

The change was prompted by an absurd situation the prior year where the RC in the last race ended up with more points than the last boat to cross the finish line, because very few boats showed up that day whereas the RC score was her average over the series. The system ended up penalizing the brave souls who volunteered to RC the later races.

No scoring system can ever be the best under any scenario.

Peace and Happy Winter to all

Michel


Well said Doug, and thanks.

I don't remember when I started the Frostbite Series ... I tried to find results from past years on the website but apparently we only keep the past 5 years or so now. I think we started in 2008 or 2009, certainly it was before many current racers were members of HHSA.

When I created the first SI's I did what Annapolis Yacht Club does with their Frosbite Scoring ... DNCs, DNS, RET, etc. are scored one point more than the number of finishers in each race.

Somebody changed our SIs this year. Yesterday we had two boats come out for the first time this year and they sailed one race. Based on the new Frostbite scoring, their start in the last race of the year caused every DNC and DNS for the series to be changed from "15" to be scored "17". 

I wish to register a concern about this development.  

It's funny (I guess) because I had offered to rejoin the Competition Committee last year but was told it was full. I was not therefore involved in any discussion about the scoring.

All the best for the Holidays!

Keith

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Posted by: Douglas A Ellmore, Sr. on 12/6/2021 at 6:35 AM
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First, Uncloudy Day, thanks for RC yesterday!  The wind did lay down as the race and day went on, but it was pretty good to the windward mark.

Congrats skipper Keith and crew of Jubilee!  Well done!  Lots of top finishes this season.  I didn't get to hold the 2020 Commodore Cup that long due to the late distribution of awards, but it has been fun none the less to show it off to family and friends. I was honored to get just a 3rd boat recorded on the award. Keith and crew, keep it well.  I won't be chasing after it next year with less racing due to A2B as our focus for the upcoming year.  Someone better get out there and do a ton of CBYRA in 2022 and give Jubilee some competition!

Hank, thanks for scoring this year.  Well done as usual. 

Finally Michel, a great job keeping HHSA Racing going during this time in history. Bravo!

It was good to see some new boats out racing.  Keep at it.  It makes for more fun at the starting line and out on the water.

All have a great holiday season!  Cheers!

Doug and Crew
REVOLUTION


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First, Uncloudy Day, thanks for RC yesterday! The wind did lay down as the race and day went on, but it was pretty good to the windward mark.


Congrats skipper Keith and crew of Jubilee! Well done! Lots of top finishes this season. I didn't get to hold the 2020 Commodore Cup that long due to the late distribution of awards, but it has been fun none the less to show it off to family and friends. I was honored to get just a 3rd boat recorded on the award. Keith and crew, keep it well. I won't be chasing after it next year with less racing due to A2B as our focus for the upcoming year. Someone better get out there and do a ton of CBYRA in 2022 and give Jubilee some competition!


Hank, thanks for scoring this year. Well done as usual.


Finally Michel, a great job keeping HHSA Racing going during this time in history. Bravo!


It was good to see some new boats out racing. Keep at it. It makes for more fun at the starting line and out on the water.


All have a great holiday season! Cheers!


Doug and Crew

REVOLUTION

HHSA Raccers,

I erroneously scored Jubilee as RC instead of DNC in Frostbite 1.   However, due to the throw-outs given, her total score remains the same.  Also, her Commodore Cup score was reduced by 3 points because she lost the RC redress awarded erroneously.  In spite of this reduction, Jubilee remains the Commodore Cup champion.

Enclosed are the revised Frostbite Series Summary and the revised Commodore Cup results.

Cheers,
Hank
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