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Racing Results

Series 1, Race 1 Results
MarkDB
5/5/2022 1:01 PM

Hi folks:

I'm not sure if this counts as result since the race was abandoned. Since I'm new to the job as scorer, I went ahead and worked the scoresheet with some welcome assistance from Hank Chalkley.


Along with being posted here in the Racing Results Forum, they are also on their own page from the Racing menu on the left. Hopefully that will be helpful if you want to look something up.


Here is a link to the Racing Results page: 2022 Race Results


Here is a link to the scoresheet document directly: 2022 WNR Series 1, Race 1


Cheers,


Mark

Eunice - Liberty Pre
5/5/2022 1:26 PM

Where are the past years' results? I tried to see what we have done before when a race has been abandoned.

bspann
5/5/2022 1:58 PM
Mark,

It looks like something got reversed in a formula.  For boats with ratings greater than 100, the corrected time should be less than the elapsed time.  Your spreadsheet shows the reverse---corrected time more than elapsed time for boats with ratings > 100.

Bob


Peter Dezendorf
5/5/2022 2:29 PM

Mark,


I appealed the PHRF rating of Firth of Tay and they agreed with me. I posted the new PHRF certs (class and cruising) on the cert thread. Firth of Tay now has a rating of 174.


Peter

bspann
5/5/2022 2:36 PM
Mark,

Resilient's PHRF is 183, not 174.

Bob Spann

Jason Fox
5/5/2022 3:09 PM
Mark--

I'm confused... what are you trying to show with individual results for this race?  If a race is "abandoned", then the race is "void" (RRS Definitions) and there should not be any individual results recorded, even if any boats finished.  It's as if the race never happened (which is why there is a line about the "RC shall consider the implications to race and series results before abandoning a race" or words to that affect).  To Eunice's question, I looked through previous racing summary pages and it was just a plain text "race cancelled" with no results posted and recorded in the Series Summary as a bright reddish/magenta color.

Hank--

Not sure what you are referring to in terms of a "new correction formula" since nothing changed in the HHSA Handicapping Rules for TCF; Bob's math is correct in terms of how the TCF should be working since we set a PHRF of 100 as the scratch boat for HHSA races (HHSA Rules 4.C and 4.E).

Cheers,
Jason

hchalkley
5/6/2022 9:57 AM
To answer one of Jason's questions:  The formula I referred to was for the time correction factor.  Until a couple of years ago, this formula was 550/(550 + PHRF rating).  This meant that a boat rated zero resulted in a TCF of one.  With that formula, for boats rated higher than zero, corrected time was always less than elapsed time.  The TCF formula has since changed to 650/(550+PHRF rating).  This means that a boat rated 100 results in a TCF of one.  As you stated, with this formula, for boats rated higher than 100, corrected time is less than elapsed time and boats rated less than 100 will have corrected times greater than elapsed times.  This is reflected in the "Corrected Time" formulas in the scoring spreadsheet (in the Results worksheet).

We had this "abandoned" discussion a few years ago.  As I recall, at that time you could not find any reference to "races abandoned" in the RRS, only "races cancelled" was referenced.  Don't know if that has changed (I expect, not).  That is why we used "cancelled" instead of "abandoned" in the HHSA Rules and the race scoring.

Kinda funny how these issues resurface every couple of years.

Cheers,
Hank



Keith
5/6/2022 10:51 AM
Hank,

Actually RRS references "Abandon" and there is a definition. RRS does not reference "Cancel". 

Regards,
Keith 

<<-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->>
Posted by: Henry G Chalkley on 5/6/2022 at 8:57 AM
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Reply directly to Henry G Chalkley at hgchalkley@gmail.com
If this message contains inappropriate content, you can report the message online: https://www.hhsa.org/content.aspx?page_id=2163&club_id=8237&item_id=3116089&thread_id=1252403&forum_id=2578&show_message=y
<<-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->>


To answer one of Jason's questions:  The formula I referred to was for the time correction factor.  Until a couple of years ago, this formula was 550/(550 + PHRF rating).  This meant that a boat rated zero resulted in a TCF of one.  With that formula, for boats rated higher than zero, corrected time was always less than elapsed time.  The TCF formula has since changed to 650/(550+PHRF rating).  This means that a boat rated 100 results in a TCF of one.  As you stated, with this formula, for boats rated higher than 100, corrected time is less than elapsed time and boats rated less than 100 will have corrected times greater than elapsed times.  This is reflected in the "Corrected Time" formulas in the scoring spreadsheet (in the Results worksheet).
We had this "abandoned" discussion a few years ago.  As I recall, at that time you could not find any reference to "races abandoned" in the RRS, only "races cancelled" was referenced.  Don't know if that has changed (I expect, not).  That is why we used "cancelled" instead of "abandoned" in the HHSA Rules and the race scoring.
Kinda funny how these issues resurface every couple of years.

Cheers,Hank






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Eunice - Liberty Pre
5/6/2022 11:13 AM

RRS - pretty clear an abandoned race is not scored. We should use the term "abandoned."


Abandoned is defined in the Intro - an abandoned race is VOID.


Rule 30 discusses shortening course or abandoning race.


90.3 provides a race shall be scored "if it is not abandoned . . ."

Michel
5/6/2022 11:18 AM

Jason you are correct. This is how a race abandoned showed in the summaries last year (Series 2). One big red column, no results of any type

Jason Fox
5/6/2022 11:56 AM
Eunice (and everyone)--

So to clarify, all of the results are always posted in the Documents section, even current ones.  To find them, select Member Resources -> Documents from the menu bar.  Once there, you can click to expand the Racing folder, and then select the year you are interested in, all the way back to 1998. Note that you have to be logged on as a member to do this.

What is not visible to non-admins (trigger warning: minor IT Speak ahead)
1. The individual pages that were created between 2012 and 2017 that were essentially a "pretty" version of the file structures at the bottom of the Racing Page; they were just hyperlinks to the underlying document structure.  However each subsequent year was a copy of the previous year's, so they are riddled with html/formatting problems that just kept stacking.  These pages still exist and are theoretically visible to anyone who happens to have the page address, but there are currently no direct links to them.
2.  Starting in 2018, the Racing Page as we know it up until last year was updated every season with new links, so with each update, the previous version was lost... Until about 18 months ago when CE rolled out a major update that retains each version of the page.  These are archive files, not true pages, so they can only be viewed by Admins.  We can set how long each page retains archive files for, but in the case of the racing page, it is set to the maximum (in this case, I can see all the way back to September 28th, 2020, which is about when they rolled out the new feature).
3.  This year, Mark overhauled the Main racing page and created a separate 2022 results page that presumably will be archived each year again.  Basically, a hybrid approach to what has been done since 2012.

FYSA, in spite of how our website 'looks', the pages do not include any embedded files.  The way they have archetecticed the core code is that all files/photos/videos/calendar events/etc are treated as objects in a central database, and individual pages just call those files either automatically by embedded code or by a user by clicking on a link. 

Cheers,
Jason
Commodore/Webmaster/General PITA


Jason Fox
5/6/2022 11:10 AM
Hank/Bob--

Yup... I think Bob's point was that something in the spreadsheet was working backwards, but now that I'm looking at it some more, I can't reproduce the problem he was talking about... Bob can you amplify?

All--

I dug around some more (as the webmaster) in archived pages that are no longer visible and found how we did this over the last couple of years... if we wish to be consistent with the previous few years, the racing results page should just say "Race 1 Abandoned" in plain text (i.e. no link to any results).  There are no corresponding files in the documents section for races listed as abandoned, indicating an individual race results file was not generated (if it was generated, it was not preserved).

Cheers,
Jason

Eunice - Liberty Pre
5/6/2022 11:17 AM

Jason, it appears that you're looking at docs that no longer are viewable by members.


Would you please either re-post the prior years' results or point me to the general results link (which I could no longer find)?


Thanks.

hchalkley
5/6/2022 1:04 PM
Regarding abandoned vs cancelled, don't have any of the old RRSs to go back to.  But, I must have had it backwards.  I can say that I never scored an abandoned race.... the only good thing that could happen to me in such an event.

Cheers,
Hank

Keith
5/6/2022 2:34 PM
Hank, 

Clearly there's no ambiguity in either one, so it probably doesn't matter what you call it.  Outcome is the same.

Keith 

<<-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->>
Posted by: Henry G Chalkley on 5/6/2022 at 12:04 PM
View/reply online: https://www.hhsa.org/content.aspx?page_id=2155&club_id=8237&item_id=1252403&message_id=3116288
Reply to forum at results@hhsa.org (be sure to copy the message subject exactly so your reply is attached to the correct thread)
Reply directly to Henry G Chalkley at hgchalkley@gmail.com
If this message contains inappropriate content, you can report the message online: https://www.hhsa.org/content.aspx?page_id=2163&club_id=8237&item_id=3116288&thread_id=1252403&forum_id=2578&show_message=y
<<-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->>


Regarding abandoned vs cancelled, don't have any of the old RRSs to go back to.  But, I must have had it backwards.  I can say that I never scored an abandoned race.... the only good thing that could happen to me in such an event.
Cheers,Hank




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Kent
5/6/2022 2:36 PM
Just to add to the confusion. About 7 years ago we, Wednesday night racers, were caught in a very violent thunderstorm. Forty knot plus gusts and no visibility. A number of racers called over the radio that they were “abandoning” the race. This caused others to think the race was abandoned which was not the case. (Though it should have been). In any event this set off a discussion about appropriate language to use when deciding not to continue racing. My understanding is that a race is abandoned by the RC if it has been started, canceled if announced prior to anything happening, and a racer can decide to retire after starting.

Cheers all.

Sent from my iPad

Doug Ellmore, Sr.
5/6/2022 2:48 PM

If a boat is leaving competition, they should inform RC they have retired.


It is not always good to so in the peak of a storm, but when a storm has passed, that is if is a short event.


Wait AFTER a start count down, too. Wait until after the start to inform RC if you had checked in.


Remember RC may be dealing with the storm, too. And everyone may want to listen for distress calls as a priority.


Mom use to say, no news is good news.


And, you may decide after the storm has passed and you have recovered, you may want to continue. It can be pretty nice out once a short storm has passed.


Try to ride out a bad brew up with bare poles and no engine if you can maintain safe distance. Then put sails up after storm has passed.


Been there done that!



Doug

s/v REVOLUTION

Jason Fox
5/6/2022 2:54 PM
Kent, yes that certainly adds to the confusion!  I still hear people occasionally saying that on the radio.  Under current RRS/usage, the term "abandoned" applies to any scheduled race that doesn't happen regardless of reason.  Technically, a race can even be abandoned after it has been completed (a very rare but possible example of this might be when there was such an an incredible protest chain that impact most boats that a Protest Committee can't actually determine a fair outcome, so they may chose to just 'throw the race out..." but that is still score as "abandoned."

There is nothing that formally defines the terms for an individual leaving a race, however as you mentioned, by custom a skipper typically "Retires" if it is after the start of the day/series (and will typically be scored as "DNF"), or "withdraws" before the first race of a series that they have registered for (typically scored "DNC" or "DNS" depending on the circumstance).  A skipper may also chose to "retire" after they finish if they know they committed an offense since "DNF" is considered a 'better' finish than "DSQ" that might be assigned by a protest committee.  The finer points here won't typically impact us here at HHSA, but the intricacies of scoring sailboat racing can be almost as much fun as scoring a baseball game :) 

bspann
5/6/2022 2:52 PM
Jason,

The time correction factor is 650/(550+PHRF). Boats with PHRF greater than 100 have time correction factors of less than one and vice versa for boats with PHRF less than 100. The corrected time is elapsed time multiplied by time the time correction factor.

Thus boats with PHRF greater than 100 should have corrected times less than their elapsed time. Boats with PHRF less than 100 should have corrected times that exceed their elapsed times. The spreadsheet shows just the reverse. Boats with PHRF greater than 100 have corrected times that exceed their elapsed times.

That is what I meant.

Bob

Sent from my iPhone

Jason Fox
5/6/2022 3:02 PM
Bob--Yes, I agree completely with your math.  I was messing around in the spreadsheet and I was getting the opposite result you are describing in the 3 cells I tested (so the spreadsheet appears "correct").  Can you point me to a specific tab/cell/row where you are seeing the incorrect results? 

Jason


Jason Fox
5/6/2022 3:04 PM
And Oops--I have to correct myself: the RRS does use the term "retired" extensively (and "RET" is an official score), however it is not formally defined by the RRS in the definitions.

hchalkley
5/6/2022 3:21 PM
Bob,

I just checked the spreadsheet and paged through the corrected time cells for all boats in the Results worksheet.  It is correct.

Cheers,
Hank

bspann
5/6/2022 3:21 PM
Jason,

Look at the summary sheet. The first boat, Adagio, had an elapsed time of 5:15 minutes. Adagio has a PHRF of 87 so her corrected time should exceed her elapsed time. However the spreadsheet shows a corrected time of 4:52:02.  Look at the first two boats in the NSR class Amara and Blew Bayou II.  Both show elapsed times of 5:20. Amara has a PHRF of 99.  Blew Bayou II has a PHRF of 171.  Since both boats have the same elapsed time (equivalent to saying that they crossed the finish line at the same time), the boat with the higher PHRF, Blew Bayou II, should correct over Amara--that is, Blew Bayou II should end up with a lower corrected time than Amara.  The spreadsheet shows just the reverse.  Amara is shown as having a lower corrected time than Blew Bayou II.

To do a specific numerical example.  Blew Bayou II has a PHRF of 171.  Thus her correction factor should be 650/(150+171)=.901.  5:20 elapsed time is 320 seconds.  Since the corrected time is the time correction factor times the elapsed time, Blew Bayou II should have a corrected time of ,901x320 = 288 seconds, or 4:48.  Yet the spreadsheet shows a corrected time of 7:10 for Blew Bayou II.

Bob



MarkDB
5/6/2022 8:04 PM

Hi folks:


Nice to know you are checking my work. 😄 New guy on the job.


Bob and Peter: I updated your PHRF ratings on the scratch scoring sheet for next week.


Eunice: I've added a new tab on the racing menu for Racing Results History. I constructed it from previous Racing Results pages. They only go through 2017. The 2018-21 results documents are in Documents from the Member Resources menu. It will be a project to put together 2018-21 pages. Volunteer?


This week's race is already on the Results page. I put a note at the top of the Summary stating the race was abandoned. The note was at the bottom of the previous version.


Cheers,


Mark


Doug Ellmore, Sr.
5/6/2022 8:40 PM

The results show REVOLUTION starting. This is incorrect. If we get enough crew when I can return, we could do Spinnaker. Please don't classify us yet.


Cheers,


Doug

Gerry Perez
5/7/2022 1:55 PM
Mark,

I don't recall seeing Second Wind on Wednesday. If she was racing, there should be a new skipper, as Joe Howell has retired from racing. 

Gerry 

hchalkley
5/7/2022 6:50 PM
Second Wind was sold last fall and  moved to Delaville.

Cheers,
Hank

hchalkley
5/6/2022 10:14 PM
Bob,

What spreadsheet are you reviewing?  The Race 1 results had no finish times.  Mark used the 2021 Series 3 Race 6 results corrected for the new scratch sheet for calculating the 2022 results, but since the race was abandoned there were no finish times.  I'm confused.

bspann
5/7/2022 7:02 AM
Hank,

I went to racing results on the HHSA website. I clicked on 2022 results, series 1 race 1.  I looked at the summary sheet.  The file I am referring to is attached.

Bob

bspann
5/7/2022 7:04 AM
Hank,

I am referring to the elapsed times and the corrected times on the spreadsheet.

Bob


Eunice - Liberty Pre
5/7/2022 9:49 AM

The spreadsheet needs to be revised to accurately reflect the boats that showed up.


There are several boats that did not race yet they are listed.

hchalkley
5/7/2022 10:00 AM
No spreadsheet is required when a race is abandoned.  I would delete it from the record.  Doesn't matter who showed up.

Cheers,
Hank

hchalkley
5/7/2022 9:58 AM
Bob,

The spreadsheet requires that you use times in the following format:  XX:XX:XX.  So an elapsed time of 5:15 minutes should be entered as 00:05:15.  Elapsed time in the spreadsheet is a calculation of Finish Time - Start Time.  Try your examples using this format and I think you'll find that all is well.

Cheers,
Hank

hchalkley
5/5/2022 2:48 PM
Bob,

That's the way it's supposed to work with the newer correction formula.

Cheers,
Hank

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